civilized ku # 108 ~ THE BIG LIE
Saturday, September 27, 2008 at 12:07PM 
An imposing edifice • click to embiggenIn yesterday's entry I mentioned the radical right fundamentalist rote we're - on - the - road - to - socialism response that addressing topics like those raised inevitably draw from the "true believers". And, right on cue, we have this comment:
...elect Obama so we can put an end to free markets and the United States of America.
And, just to put an exclamation point to that spurious form of paranoia, this was also added:
...Our problem is liberalism. It makes you feel good. You have compassion for your fellow man (unless they disagree with you). It allow (sic) you to have personal freedom. To do what you want to do with no constraints .... The idea that you can do what you want and not effect any one else ... Liberalism lead (sic) to me, me, me. A selfish society with no morals will collapse.
I, for one, am sick to death of the radical right fundamentalist's BIG LIE. Anyone else out there feel the same way?
First and foremost, I am sick of being labeled a "liberal" - my political views are a much more complex mix of views and beliefs. Some come from the "left", some from the "right", and then there's a bit of the libertarian and the progressive mixed in. It draws, in part, from religious traditions - Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, to name a few.
So, as far as I am concerned, if the radical right fundamentalists can't deal with that level of complexity, they can take their simpleminded label and shove it.
I am also sick and tired of being insulted and slandered as having "no morals" and the idea that I "do what you (I) want to do with no constraints" or that I am "selfish" and care only about "me, me, me". In other words, I am as sick of hearing the BIG LIE as I am of hearing the brain-dead Pavlovian response of a - socialist behind - every - bush nonsense.
Let's set the record straight - NO GROUP - religious, political, cultural, racial, (take your pick) - has anything resembling a stranglehold on right-living. They are all made up of equal opportunity sinners. And, the opposite is also true - NO GROUP - religious, political, cultural, racial, (take your pick) - has anything resembling a stranglehold on wrong-living.
In truth, the ne'er-do-wells are spread out pretty equally across all of society.
But, of course, that fact doesn't serve well those who need to foster THE BIG LIE for political, social, religious, racial gain. No ... in exactly the same manner as the Nazi's employed to demonize the Jews in order to rationalize their murder, the radical right fundamentalists are fixed upon demonizing and de-humanizing demagoguery in order to propagate their specious world-view.
So, even though this is a civilized ku, I am not inclined to be very civil. My response is simple ... shut the fuck up. How dare you presume that you even know me well enough to label me as anything. How dare presume to know or judge whether my life is moral, ethical, or right-living. Your paranoia and demagoguery serves no constructive purpose for society at large.
Do us all a favor - pick a state, any state. Build a wall. Put up gates and defend the whole thing - paranoia and demagoguery included - to the death. Just leave the rest us alone unless you have something constructive and informed to say.
Reader Comments (13)
Mark, there are a couple of thousand miles between us, but, if you listen very carefully, you'll hear the sound of applause coming from northwest of you. That'll be me. I'm pretty sure, though, that I won't be alone.
You are not alone but certainly not in some kind of majority.
However i think that in general it is against ideology of any kind that i would part. Ideology is anything less than the "lie" itself.
But i fear that it is always less expensive to go with an ideology so i am pessimist on my own.
Maybe better following truth (as you call it) in photography, let's do the revolution in our garden.
Well said.
Mark, you may be sick death of the radical right fundamentalist’ BIG LIE, but I’m sick to death of the far left’s high and mighty double standard and total disregard to the truth in order to support their views. So no, I don’t feel the same way you do.
First, I never called you a Liberal or questioned your morals. However, you are correct. I don’t know you. Your views may be complex mix of view and beliefs. However, it is strange you are very defensive.
Second, I don’t like being labeled, being called simpleminded and not being able to deal with your level of complexity. For you information, my views are also a complex mix of views and beliefs. Some are “left” and some “right”. I used to think very liberal many years ago, but after lots of thought and consideration I am more of a conservative libertarian now. My religious view are a complex mix of Christian, Buddhist, Hindu with a some influence of Carlos Castaneda.
So let’s set the record straight – NO GROUP – has a stranglehold on the truth, including far left liberals. For you to compare the far right to Nazi and to tell people to shut the fuck up shows your paranoia and demagoguery and your attempt to silence people you disagree with. So let’s set the record straight – NO GROUP – has a stranglehold on the truth not even you.
"…I don’t like being labeled, being called simpleminded and not being able to deal with your level of complexity" From Ron's post above.
Sorry Ron, but I'm going to try and start a discussion about you, and others who are similar, with the intension of ignoring anything you might have to say. See what I would to do is explore the "Ron" mind set with the… Uh Oh! Look out! Here comes the buzz word… Intellectual Elite. By the way, aren't we as Americans supposed to strive to become one of the "Elite" something? You know… Elite golfer, plumber, photographer, whatever. When did being an intellect, read thinker, become bad? Anyway…
Q. How do you get through to "Simpleminded" people when they are so simpleminded that they don't realize that they're simple minded?
a quote (to be provocative) from an article that I read on
edge.org
"What makes people vote Republican? Why in particular do working class and rural Americans usually vote for pro-business Republicans when their economic interests would seem better served by Democratic policies? We psychologists have been examining the origins of ideology ever since Hitler sent us Germany's best psychologists, and we long ago reported that strict parenting and a variety of personal insecurities work together to turn people against liberalism, diversity, and progress. But now that we can map the brains, genes, and unconscious attitudes of conservatives, we have refined our diagnosis: conservatism is a partially heritable personality trait that predisposes some people to be cognitively inflexible, fond of hierarchy, and inordinately afraid of uncertainty, change, and death. People vote Republican because Republicans offer "moral clarity"—a simple vision of good and evil that activates deep seated fears in much of the electorate. Democrats, in contrast, appeal to reason with their long-winded explorations of policy options for a complex world." Jonathan Haidt
Sound familiar?
complete article:
http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/haidt08/haidt08_index.html
Mark,
As an europian I share most of your opinions. Mc Cain has solutions of the 20th century, Obama is an 21st century man. I sincerely hope the American people will vote for Obama. It will be better for the USA, it will be better for the world!
Still I think the USA is one of the great democracies in the world.
Jaap
Jimi Nuffin:
Glad you posted that URL or I would have. A second enthusiastic vote for it.
Wonder if Merck can find a cure for conservatism before it's too late?
Well done, Mark.
What we have here is failure to communicate. There is a misconception of where I am coming from. Feelings come first and then we justify them with thoughts. I agree with a lot of liberal ideas. Where we part company is I feel they are too idealistic. Let’s take one issue, healthcare. I agree with Obama. Everyone should have affordable healthcare. We have a mess. Something has to be done. The issue is should government provide healthcare for everyone.
Here in Tennessee we have a program call Tenncare. It was created to provide health insurance for anyone who could not get insurance for what ever reason. All you had to do is get a form of rejection from an insurance company and you could get very low cost or free insurance from the state. As it turned out, it almost bankrupted our state.
I can’t vote for Obama. With the current state of our economy, I feel universal healthcare will bankrupt our country. Left, Right, Up or Down, We just can’t afford it now. You may say, “We don’t need four more years of failed Bush policies that got us here in the first place”. Well, things have changed. We have a democratic controlled House and Senate. How is McCain going to continue with the same failed policies? This is why I feel Obama will be the end of America. It is not because I have far right feelings and views. I am more of a Libertarian. I don’t know what need to be done, but let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water. All views from Left and Right need a good dose of realism and common sense.
I like Jonathan Haidt’s “What makes people vote Republican”. Although I don’t think it applies to everyone. It assumes that everyone has polarized views from the beginning. He does not take in account someone changed position based on what is realistic. It does provide a logical path for Democrats to understand Republicans. However, if Democrats understand Republicans, does that make them the same. I think the article should be renamed “Why Democrats should vote Republican.”
You can intellectualize every issue, position and view. But if you don’t have realism and common sense, all you have is pie in the sky.
You see Ron, when you say things like "Obama will be the end of America" and immediately follow it up with "it's not because I have far right feelings and views", you seem to miss a major point. That type of "death and doom" language is constantly used by the far right you are trying to disassociate yourself from. And of course, the absolute certainty with which you make your claim makes this all the more transparent.
It's part of the "Big Lie" being referenced in this post. You can't say insane things like "Obama will be the end of America" with absolute certainty and claim to be a middle of the road "thinker". The beauty of this country is that no one person is going to be the end of America. It doesn't work that way. Oh, a guy like Bush can f- it up pretty bad, but we aren't going to crumble based on his poor leadership alone, anymore than we'll crumble if McCain continues many of Bush's policies.
And if you feel that a poorly conceived program for some sort of health care assistance in Tennessee is proof that universal healthcare is impossible, I'm not sure what I could say to change your mind. Countries around the world have very successful universal healthcare programs, yet those who argue your stance against such programs dismiss them just as quickly as you are willing to accept a failed program in your home state as proof nothing can work.
You see, to me it doesn't seem like universal healthcare is the greatest threat to our economy at the present...seems more like an unregulated corporate culture is in the lead. Yet you don't go into that Ron, or the billions spent on an endless war, or extending tax cuts during the greatest deficit in history or the brilliant stimulus plan that did such wonders for our economy. Nope...you reach for the old standby instead, universal healthcare...that which will ultimately break us. No slanted views Ron?
Come on...it's okay to admit it. You're not open to debate on what's "fact", you're trying to push your "belief system". And that's fine...we all do it. What we don't all do, or at least shouldn't, is try to scare people into thinking the way we do. That's what the far right does and now continues to do.
I'm tired of is being told to be afraid of terrorists...be afraid of economic collapse...be afraid of universal health care...be afraid of the cost of alternative engery...be afraid of poor people...be afraid of Barack Obama. If America "comes to and end" Ron, it will be because we as a people were afraid to do anything different than that which we've been doing to get us to that very point in time, not because we actually tried to fix the problem.
Ok, I will stop with “Obama will be the end of America”. I agree one man is not going to destroy our country. He is just one more politician. Who will say or do anything to get elected. I said these words because of what I feel and not as an attempt to scare you. I am open minded regardless of what you think of me and I want some answers. Here are some questions for all of you thinkers out there. Give a good answer and I will agree with you.
1. Where is the money going to come from to pay for universal healthcare? Tax? Print more money? Make corporations pay it? Go further in debt? Are you going to pay for it? Do you think it’s free? Or, is there something I don’t know about? It seems to me that any answer you have always has the same ones paying for it, you and me.
2. Can we afford it? I don’t know about you but my pocket is empty. I am 61 and plan to draw social security in one year. Do you think I will ever get the amount I have paid in? Do think you will ever receive social security? How are the baby boomers ever going to get paid? There are a lot of us. Should we pay our debt first?
3. Do you really trust the government to handle our healthcare efficiently, without allowing greed, corruption to milk it dry? I used Tennessee as an example of what can happen not as proof.
4. What has happen to our healthcare system? It has worked in the past. Why can’t we go back to what worked then?
I know you think the greatest threat is unregulated free market. You have issues with the war, terrorists, alternative energy, poor people and everything else that got us to this point. Because no one will fix the real problem. Well I tell you what. Why don’t stay on one topic at a time. We can discuss it and see where we can agree. It’s universal healthcare, what about it.
I don't see any constructive change coming no matter whom you vote into office. The system is just too cemented in place to change in any valid way. Only a full demolition of the institutions now extant will achieve anything in the way of reforming society along more humane lines. Sorry, but Revolution is the only answer. Politics as practiced in the USA is nothing more than a palliative to keep the Public busy with inconsequential activities while the ruling class gets on with making money. A good start would be the demolition of the imperious Capitol Hill building, the White House and the Pentagon. Perhaps then you could reform your country. Until then you haven't the ghost of a chance.
Do you really trust the (government) to handle our healthcare efficiently, without allowing greed, corruption to milk it dry? I used Tennessee as an example of what can happen not as proof.
Replace (government) with big business, Wall Street financial analysts, bankers ... and it reads the same. I use the current financial system snafu as an example.
Amen, Dennis