civilized ku # 81 ~ what Brian said!
Wednesday, April 9, 2008 at 08:00AM 
Funhouse garage with barrels • click to embiggenI still receive auto-email notifications of discussion forum postings from a nature photography site even though I no longer participate on that site. Every once in awhile, there is a topic that sounds as though it might be interesting and I do check it out. Most times it is much more chafe than grain, and I do mean chafe, not chaff.
Recently, as it always does every couple of months or so, the topic of number of comments to picture postings came up. The usual rant is that some 'selfish' posters have a very low ratio of comments to picture posts. This is decried by most because "comments are how we learn", and, "comments are the heart of the site". And, woe to those who don't include tech data with their pictures! - that how we learn.
Now, IMO, in order to buy into that reasoning, you first have to get by the fact that the overwhelming number of comments are little more than of the "I like the color" variety. Most of the remainder are of the "I would have ..." variety. What this most reminds me of is the scene in Monty Python's Life of Brian where Brian is in a window and his followers are outside demanding a blessing -
Brain: No. No, please! Please! Please listen. I've got one or two things to say.
Followers: Tell us. Tell us both of them.
Brian: Look. You've got it all wrong. You don't need to follow me. You don't need to follow anybody! You've got to think for yourselves. You're all individuals!
Followers: Yes, we're all individuals!
Brian: You're all different!
Followers: Yes, we are all different!
Brian: You've all got to work it out for yourselves!
Followers: Yes! We've got to work it out for ourselves!
Brian: Exactly!
Followers: Tell us more!
Brian: No! That's the point! Don't let anyone tell you what to do!
Here's my point. I'm a 100% self-taught photographer. Aaron, the Cinemascape-ist, is a 100% self-taught photographer. Like many others, we learned the mechanics of the medium by doing. Sure, we read a few books and manuals but that is just part of the doing. Along the way, we made 'mistakes' but, of course, that's another part of how we learned.
We developed our aesthetic sensibilities by looking at the pictures made by others and also by doing, that is to say, making our own pictures - ones that reflected the way we literally and figuratively 'see' things - until we, not them, were reasonably satisfied with the results (the learning never ends). Sure, we like it when our pictures connect in a meaningful way with others but, that said, we aren't doing it for them.
None of this was done in a vacuum - we certainly looked, and still do, at photography by others for 'inspiration' and we have talked to others about many things photography & art-wise - but, that said, we are where we are today because, to paraphrase Brian, we are individuals, we are different, and we worked it out for ourselves.
That said, I'm curious - how many of you are self-taught? And, have any of you ever learned anything from comments about your pictures on an online forum?
Reader Comments (19)
I don't think I've learned much more than if someone likes or dislikes my pictures from comments they've made on them. I doubt I've ever learned anything insightful or useful from comments made on my images.
Where I have learned a lot is by commenting on other people's images. By looking, thinking about what I like, what I don't like. Refining my sense of my own visual interest by looking at images other people produce. Formalising those thoughts a bit by actually writing them down and trying to express coherently (or somewhat coherently) what I personally feel is good or bad or compelling or weak in a particular image.
So I don't think getting comments helps much at all, other than for technical feedback which is easier to learn by doing or by reading - getting comments and hoping to learn from them is entirely too passive to really learn. You have to actually experience it to understand what it means - just hearing it is unlikely to be useful.
But thinking carefully enough about what you like, looking at a lot of images and writing about why you like or don't like things starts to influence your own image making. Doesn't matter if you share those comments with the creator of the image or not though, the value is in the writing, not the reading. Least that's been my experience.
I'm self taught, mostly by making a lot of mistakes. That's one of the real advantages of digital too ( I agree on your post yesterday about image quality in film being superior ) but the tight feedback loop of digital (I can look at the mistakes closer to when I made them) plus the easy book-keeping of digital ( I can see what camera settings I screwed up) and the relative expense of digital (I've paid for all the exposures when I bought the camera, so I can make as many as I like) all combine to be a great teaching platform, if you choose to use them.
Clipping in the highlight regions is horrendous, which is annoying. The whole linearity of the response is nasty.
So I learn a lot from comments, but only from making them and really paying attention to what I like and don't like, then following that up later when I'm doing photography.
I am mostly self taught, except for that studio and commercial photography educational stint way back when.
I have learned from comments on this online venue. Different crowd, different meanings, different values.
Well some are from a different crowd, some are known by me from a different site, where their comments there were just as helpful.
I'm self taught; lots of books and reading and doing, but no classes. Comments are nice as far as getting strokes, but I don't think I've learned anything from them. I agree with Gordon above that leaving comments can be useful if it makes you stop and think about what it is that works or doesn't work for you.
Nothing formal, self-taught mostly. Learned bunches from my peers. Learned some more by hanging with, or assisting amired photographers during workshops. I think I learned most by being curious, and having all consuming passion to explore that curiosity. And I never tire of looking at the work of others.
I'm selftaught. Funny thing I am teaching now. First thing I always say to a new group of students: "I cannot make you better photographers. You can only do that yourself by working hard an being critical. But you have to be proud sometimes. Always go for the best in yourself. My role as a teacher is to be a harsh and critical inspirator".
Self taught amateur, never gained anything from comments other than short lived feelings of "yes I knew it was good as well" that fed my ego for a very short period! Gain a lot of motivation from blogs like this, seriously thinking of putting some Reala through my Ebony SW69, thanks for the idea.
I'm self-taught, and sure, I've learned a lot from online comments, like:
* Photographers are people just like, eh, other people.
* Kitsch is loved and adored.
* Art is overrated and overpriced, except when it is very beautiful.
* Gear is more interesting than what's being photographed.
* Stick to your day job.
On the other hand, I learned the basics online, and for that I'm grateful.
I'm not sure your assessment of online photo comments is valid. The value of such peer reviews lies not so much in artistic advancement as in simple encouragement. For the beginner, that can be an important part of growth.
Sure, if a person is serious about improving their skills and artistic vision then they those comments will cease to be meaningful. However, that does not detract from the initial benefit.
Ooops....meant to answer the question. I consider myself self taught although I did have darkroom classes in college. As artists, though, aren't we all self taught?
Took a darkroom course in high school and when the arts teacher who held it got fed up with us in the following year I held it myself. No formal photographic education since then, so I'm essentially self taught, adhering to the principle "see one (or read about it), do one, teach one".
From reactions to my photos on online forums I learnt what has mass appeal. It's still fun sometimes to post a test photo that is adhering to some cliche or presumption and see the predictable comments come in. Then, there's a subgroup of like-minded photographers that follow each other's efforts benevolently, their comments are always well-meaning, never controversial and sometimes thinly veiled request for reciprocal admiration. This gets boring and stagnant.
I guess I need to get to a proper portfolio review.
I'm entirely self taught - I don't think it ever occurred to me that you'd need formal instruction to learn how to use a camera.
I've avoided online comments sites for all the reasons above. If I felt there was somwhere I could get solid constructive comments, I'd give it a go.
I've found feedback on my stuff useful for 2 reasons: firstly it's helped me identify a couple of common technical flaws that can get in the way of what I'm trying to do. Thesecond is that it helps me judge other's reactions to what I'm doing. If one has any intention of connecting with others, then one has to find out if that is being achieved.
I took the NYIP correspondence course some years back and found it to be very helpful. The feedback from the instructors on my work was frighteningly good, to be honest. The course material, not so much.
The course was film-centric. I migrated from film to digital on my own.
At 60 years old I am still a self taught amatuer learning something new everyday especially here on this blog.
I started out at 11 with a b&w camera and a lot of my inspiration came from reading LIFE magazine. I finally bought my first 35mm at 17, an Agfa. I went to Vietnam with the Marines, bought a Yashica and then Nikons. When I came home the only "training" I had was magazines and when I bought the TIME-LIFE Photography books and read them stem to stern.
I didn't realize how much I was stuck in the rule of thirds until I started reading this blog.
I have tried to break away from rules and be my own person but it has been tough because of how it was drummed into my head years ago.
I still shoot Nikons and have recently got into digiscoping. I enjoy nature shots and street photography. I am currently working on a b&w project with a new Nikon P50.
Most comments on my blog are the same old same old.
Self-taught like everyone else. I've never posted on commented on forums, but I have learned a lot on blogs, especially from comments on my own work (latest here). I enjoy others' suggestions on different crops or other handling. It may not be how I'd do it, but considering the possibilities, and how the changes affect the image, helps me better understand my own choices.
"And, have any of you ever learned anything from comments about your pictures on an online forum?"
I've learned that I don't like comments on online forums.
Started shooting with a Nikon N65 35mm after reading several Ansel Adams' books on photography, most of which probably made the whole "technical" process more complicated than it needed to be for someone like me. As Mark stated in an earlier post, most of the time I live by the phrase "f8 and be there".
Since I had no control over processing and zero dark room experience (long wait time for results with little control, expense, etc), I upgraded to a Nikon D50 body as soon as I could afford it. I used the 2 film lenses I had available for the next several years. I'm now shooting almost exclusively with a Nikon D80, and I just moved from the digital processing program that came with my camera to CS3 in December...learning that the processing stage is often half the battle, sometimes more. Loving this new sense of control over my photography and wallowing in the mistakes that come with learning how to handle such a powerful program.
But what I dig about this site is the idea of a "cohesive artistic vision" that we continue to return to. While this is probably fairly common knowledge to most, it wasn't to me. I'm still acquiring the discipline needed to shoot this way (I tend to be easily distracted by every potential photo I see...and I tend to see a lot). Since discovering Mark and Aaron's work, I've explored this concept through a number of artists' portfolio sites recommended here, and many that I have found on my own...at least one a week, but more like one a day. This has been my real education I think.
Have I missed shots because of a lack of technical ability at this stage? You have no idea. Have I been extremely heavy handed in how I process some photos as I learn? Absolutely, I have. But I am improving fast. And I have never been as interested in the "how" as I have been the "why"...more of an emotional first impression I guess. This is probably not the best personality for such a technical art form, but it is what it is.
The last thing on my mind when I view Aaron's Cinemascapes or Mark's Urban Ku Series is how they could be improved with different technology or film. I assume it's the endless exploration of their art form that leads them to try different techniques, and the fact that they have mastered their current technology and constantly crave new ways of presenting their art. It's the idea behind each artist's "photo project" that feeds my addiction at the moment...and this new obsession with needing to find meaning within a series of pictures that somehow work together. I'm to the point now where I don't even enjoy an individual picture as much as I probably should.
I've had some formal training (workshops) in order to get over the big humps (e.g., studio lighting techniques), but I'm mostly self-taught. I study a lot of photography books, I scan a lot of photo-sharing sites and photographers' websites, and I ask a lot of questions (thank you , whoever invented email). Oh, and I also shoot a lot.
For me, the most important aspect of learning is digging and digging to find a photographer who's work appeals to me. Then I study it, dissect it, and try to work it into my flow.
Andy Frazer
http://gorillasites.blogspot.com
Photo Club in Vienna held a darkroom course over a few days and I attended that back in the early 1980s. Two day intro to LF course after buying a used 4x5 outfit. Lots of book reading. A platinum palladium workshop a few years back. All this over a span of 25 years.